Copernicus
Nov 20, 2008 General Nonsense |
Researchers think they found the body of Copernicus. This raises many questions for me.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_poland_copernicus
To begin, the article identifies Copernicus as the guy "whose theories identified the Sun, not the Earth, as the center of the universe."
I'm no astronomer, but I'm pretty sure our sun isn't the center of the universe either. The current thinking is that the sun is the center of our solar system. Apparently Copernicus died in vain. I wonder if his skeleton was spinning in its grave when it was discovered.
I also wonder what the researchers plan to do with his body. I recommend attaching a generator to his bones and then reading the Yahoo News report to them once a day. That should solve our energy problem.
I wonder if Polish law allows you to buy a guy's skeleton if there are no known relatives to claim it. That would make a great conversation piece for some billionaire. If I owned them I would hang them from a moving track around my office so Copernicus always revolved around me when I worked. And I would refer to my office as the universe, because apparently that word can mean anything.
Votes: +8
Comments
User Name: draconlord
Dec 2, 2008
0
You're so right!!!
Haven't you noticed how revolutionaries always leave a loophole in their ideas?? I mean, seriously. Like,whats-his-name would have solved our food crisis that would occur sometime in 2050 if he could simply just give us his formula for turning wine into water.
Or was it the reverse?
...who cares? It was highly inconsiderate of him not to share his success with the rest of the world anyway. In my very humble opinion, he deserved to be hanged.
Oh, wait, somebody already done that. Oh well, I guess great minds think alike.
Haven't you noticed how revolutionaries always leave a loophole in their ideas?? I mean, seriously. Like,whats-his-name would have solved our food crisis that would occur sometime in 2050 if he could simply just give us his formula for turning wine into water.
Or was it the reverse?
...who cares? It was highly inconsiderate of him not to share his success with the rest of the world anyway. In my very humble opinion, he deserved to be hanged.
Oh, wait, somebody already done that. Oh well, I guess great minds think alike.
User Name: Stomper
Nov 24, 2008
0
I would have thought the center of the universe is the dimensionless point where the Big Bang occurred. Astronomers used Doppler shifting to determine that the universe is expanding. Can't they measure differences in Doppler shifts to identify the point from which all those galaxies are fleeing? Then we would know where the center of the universe really is (assuming uniform speeds of expansion in all directions).
If they can, but simply have not yet thought to do so, then I want my name listed first on the Nobel Prize.
If they can, but simply have not yet thought to do so, then I want my name listed first on the Nobel Prize.
User Name: gravitation
Nov 23, 2008
0
To still think that the earth or the sun is the sum and center of anything is, of course, somewhat solipsistic. The Renaissance placed man, “the measure of all things,†at the center of all things. More recently, so did proponents of the anthropomorphic principle: the only universe we can occupy is one we are in, i.e, if it were any different, no human would occupy it: thus, the earth around the sun, the sun, at the fringe of the Milky Way, around a black hole, the black hole around perhaps another black hole, wheels around wheels around wheels, etc.
Still some have striven to attain both, not just a personal but universal consciousness, viz.:
Like a geometer wholly dedicated to squaring the circle, but who cannot find, think as he may, the principle behind it, so did I study the supernal face. I yearned to know just how our image merges into that circle and how it finds its place; but mine were not the wings for such a flight. Yet, as I wished, the truth I wished for came splintering my mind in a great flash of light. Here my powers rest from their high fantasy, but already I could feel my being turned—instinct and intellect balanced equally as in a wheel whose motion nothing jars—by the love that moves the sun and the other stars (The Divine Comedy, Dante Aligieri, The John Ciardi Translation, pg. 601, W.W. Norton and Company, New York, London, 1977)
I think that to achieve both (if that’s the goal—three and one may still be only me), more than a little humility is required. We don’t know everything yet. Given a couple of million years, who knows? We may get there yet.
Still some have striven to attain both, not just a personal but universal consciousness, viz.:
Like a geometer wholly dedicated to squaring the circle, but who cannot find, think as he may, the principle behind it, so did I study the supernal face. I yearned to know just how our image merges into that circle and how it finds its place; but mine were not the wings for such a flight. Yet, as I wished, the truth I wished for came splintering my mind in a great flash of light. Here my powers rest from their high fantasy, but already I could feel my being turned—instinct and intellect balanced equally as in a wheel whose motion nothing jars—by the love that moves the sun and the other stars (The Divine Comedy, Dante Aligieri, The John Ciardi Translation, pg. 601, W.W. Norton and Company, New York, London, 1977)
I think that to achieve both (if that’s the goal—three and one may still be only me), more than a little humility is required. We don’t know everything yet. Given a couple of million years, who knows? We may get there yet.
User Name: gzee_ah
Nov 21, 2008
+2
"I'm no astronomer, but I'm pretty sure our sun isn't the center of the universe..."
Ah, actually, since Einstein proved that spacetime is curved, the sun IS considered the center of the universe, as is every other point in the universe. Imagine the surface of a three dimensional sphere (such as the surface of the earth, for example). Can you locate the center of that surface? No. Or, another way of looking at it is that EVERY point is its center. Now try to imagine (it's impossible, I know; but you can SORT OF get the idea) the surface of a four dimensional sphere in that same way. Every point in the universe is as far away from the "edge" as every other point, since, really, the universe has no edge. It's finite but boundless, sort of a way of saying infinite without really meaning it.
Ah, actually, since Einstein proved that spacetime is curved, the sun IS considered the center of the universe, as is every other point in the universe. Imagine the surface of a three dimensional sphere (such as the surface of the earth, for example). Can you locate the center of that surface? No. Or, another way of looking at it is that EVERY point is its center. Now try to imagine (it's impossible, I know; but you can SORT OF get the idea) the surface of a four dimensional sphere in that same way. Every point in the universe is as far away from the "edge" as every other point, since, really, the universe has no edge. It's finite but boundless, sort of a way of saying infinite without really meaning it.
User Name: raptormann
Nov 21, 2008
+1
Apparently, Copernicus was also an actor and played the old dude in "Babe". How he got on a PETA ad is beyond me:
http://veggietestimonial.peta.org/_images/psa_full/600_james_cromwell.jpg
http://veggietestimonial.peta.org/_images/psa_full/600_james_cromwell.jpg
User Name: phaser
Nov 21, 2008
+1
To expound on my2k's assertion that he/she is the center of the universe:
The size and shape of the universe is a product of our observations. Our observations are based on the electro-magnetic radiation that we can observe with the instruments we have - a variety of telescopes. The universe is continually expanding, from our point of view, partly because we have better and better instruments that can detect light and radiation from father and farther away. Now, if you imagine that "line of sight" extending out radially in all directions, the resulting shape is a sphere that is centered on the point of observation - the earth. So, in this manner of thinking, the earth really is the center of the universe.
And, it is possible to model everything in the universe as revolving around the earth. What Copernicus was able to show, even though he didn't think of it this way, is that the mathematics of the orbital mechanics of the solar system are much easier to work out if you take the sun as the static point in the equation, rather than the earth. In point of fact, you can pick any point anywhere in the universe as your static starting point and work out all the mathematics for the orbital mechanics of everything from that point. That is the principal of relativity at work.
The size and shape of the universe is a product of our observations. Our observations are based on the electro-magnetic radiation that we can observe with the instruments we have - a variety of telescopes. The universe is continually expanding, from our point of view, partly because we have better and better instruments that can detect light and radiation from father and farther away. Now, if you imagine that "line of sight" extending out radially in all directions, the resulting shape is a sphere that is centered on the point of observation - the earth. So, in this manner of thinking, the earth really is the center of the universe.
And, it is possible to model everything in the universe as revolving around the earth. What Copernicus was able to show, even though he didn't think of it this way, is that the mathematics of the orbital mechanics of the solar system are much easier to work out if you take the sun as the static point in the equation, rather than the earth. In point of fact, you can pick any point anywhere in the universe as your static starting point and work out all the mathematics for the orbital mechanics of everything from that point. That is the principal of relativity at work.
User Name: tragicmishap
Nov 21, 2008
+1
alexholyk: "Copernicus' model simplified all these paths into simple ellipses, which makes much more sense."
Copernicus said the sun was the center of circular orbits. Kepler was the one who came up with elliptical orbits. Been reading Yahoo News lately?
And about the Bible verses saying how the sun moves, well, all motion is relative. Understanding that the sun is at the center of the solar system is simply a simpler and more convenient way of understanding the gravitational forces of the solar system. Mathematically it is easier to represent the sun as the center of the solar system. But motion in general is relative to whichever point you take to be stationary. my2k said it very well:
"Not to bust Copernicus's bubble or anything, but if the universe is infinite, then I'm the center of the universe."
Copernicus said the sun was the center of circular orbits. Kepler was the one who came up with elliptical orbits. Been reading Yahoo News lately?
And about the Bible verses saying how the sun moves, well, all motion is relative. Understanding that the sun is at the center of the solar system is simply a simpler and more convenient way of understanding the gravitational forces of the solar system. Mathematically it is easier to represent the sun as the center of the solar system. But motion in general is relative to whichever point you take to be stationary. my2k said it very well:
"Not to bust Copernicus's bubble or anything, but if the universe is infinite, then I'm the center of the universe."
User Name: shiboopi
Nov 21, 2008
+1
If the DNA of the skeleton matched that from 2 of 4 hairs found in a book, it could be his butler. It's a theory in some circles that it was really Copernicus' butler Ferd who came up with the theory but then quickly blamed it on the master when he discovered how upset the church got.
Besides, if the skull has scar on the left side, it wouldn't match the one in the picture anyway. Unless the Europeans have a different left than we do in the US of A.
And how accurate can the facial reconstruction be if the only had half a skull? It's not like they were starting without a destination in mind and it's entirely possible that subconsciously the reconstruction artist ended up in the place they wanted to go.
Besides, if the skull has scar on the left side, it wouldn't match the one in the picture anyway. Unless the Europeans have a different left than we do in the US of A.
And how accurate can the facial reconstruction be if the only had half a skull? It's not like they were starting without a destination in mind and it's entirely possible that subconsciously the reconstruction artist ended up in the place they wanted to go.
User Name: callcopse
Nov 21, 2008
+2
C'mon dude, try harder, you are plagiarising yourself again. We had Dilbert powering the company HQ off the company founder's bones in a similar manner. Next you'll be doing the cat / buttered toast generator thingy.
Still, I guess if it's funny you have got to make the most of it.
Still, I guess if it's funny you have got to make the most of it.
User Name: cecelia's baby
Nov 20, 2008
+1
DILGAL stole my line. I wanted to say that I would bid on your "funny bone" after you die, but I guess she got dibs on it. Can I bid on another bone?
Still here for anyone who cares. Don't check here -- still sick. No, rest easy. I won't bore you.
RITA MAE
Still here for anyone who cares. Don't check here -- still sick. No, rest easy. I won't bore you.
RITA MAE
User Name: kanon
Nov 20, 2008
+1
Scott to be fair, at the time of Copernicus people think that the solar system is everything we have in the universe. The planets are the real celestial bodies and all other stars and galaxies are just twinkling light attached to the crystal celestial sphere, an idea developed by Aristotle. So although Copernicus might not have gotten it "right", he's one of the very foundation of the Scientific Revolution played out in the 16th century.
User Name: Phantom II
Nov 20, 2008
+1
Gee, Scott, I thought you were the center of the universe.
Only kidding.
Only kidding.
User Name: ina
Nov 20, 2008
+1
Nah, Scott, good idea, but useless. Polish are very protective of their dead bodies. Lithuania tried to claim (for less sensible reasons than green energy) the body of Czeslaw Milosz, who won Nobel prize for literature for poetry, devoted to Lithuania. No luck.
User Name: borgnut
Nov 20, 2008
+1
I was going to post, but Cabridges-fellow took the words out of my mouth. Science approximates reality. Each step forward is a step forward even if it is later improved upon.
That's why we celebrate Newton's accomplishments even though F=MA is no longer the best explanation for mechanics, and Copernicus even though the sun is no longer thought of as the center of the universe.
That's why we celebrate Newton's accomplishments even though F=MA is no longer the best explanation for mechanics, and Copernicus even though the sun is no longer thought of as the center of the universe.
User Name: Repton
Nov 20, 2008
+2
While you're probably right that a bone-headed journalist got it wrong, it may not be so. If the prevailing wisdom at the time was that the universe consisted of the earth, the sun, a few planets, and a bunch of stars painted on to the vault of heaven, then proving that the earth revolves around the sun is the same thing as proving that the universe revolves around the sun.
User Name: alexholyk
Nov 20, 2008
-1
Copernicus thought the sun was the center of the universe, whereas previously most people thought the Earth was the center of the universe. These people constructed complicated models to justify the planets strange meanderings around the sky. Copernicus' model simplified all these paths into simple ellipses, which makes much more sense. Of course, whether or not ANYWHERE is "the center of the universe" is only a matter of opinion. The only relevance is how easy it makes the models to work with, and therefore how easy it is to make predictions, and Copernicus paved the way to making sense of the universe.
As far as Copernicus spinning in his grave ... you took that expression waaaaay too far.
As far as Copernicus spinning in his grave ... you took that expression waaaaay too far.
User Name: lovecow2
Nov 20, 2008
-1
I think the link didn't come through. Trying !$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!
User Name: lovecow2
Nov 20, 2008
-1
I think it was mentioned (or alluded to) earlier, but Copernicus never had much in the way of conflict with the Catholic church. For perspective and a brief-but-thorough historical treatment, I !$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%*!$%
User Name: HumilityRocks
Nov 20, 2008
+4
Scott,
Ok, work with me here...
1) The earth is spinning and moving (around the sun primarily)
2) The sun is spinning and moving in relation to the rest of the galaxy
3) The galaxy is spinning and moving in relation to other galaxies
4) There might be clusters of galaxies, spinning and moving in relationship to the universe as a whole
If you only accept the first 3, then you have (at least) 4 different possible simultaneous directions of movement of the earth, combined for some sort of freaky wobbling spiral as it relates to other bodies and larger things in space.
The truth is, we don't have any idea where the center of the universe is, we only know (roughly) how things are moving related to us... and how we are moving related to them, and even that we don't know very well.
It that is true, then the Earth (or the Sun) might actually be the center of the universe, how could you tell?
Join us next week as we say out loud very slowly, "We Just Don't Know Nearly as Much as We Act Like We Do" - same bat time, same bat channel.
Ok, work with me here...
1) The earth is spinning and moving (around the sun primarily)
2) The sun is spinning and moving in relation to the rest of the galaxy
3) The galaxy is spinning and moving in relation to other galaxies
4) There might be clusters of galaxies, spinning and moving in relationship to the universe as a whole
If you only accept the first 3, then you have (at least) 4 different possible simultaneous directions of movement of the earth, combined for some sort of freaky wobbling spiral as it relates to other bodies and larger things in space.
The truth is, we don't have any idea where the center of the universe is, we only know (roughly) how things are moving related to us... and how we are moving related to them, and even that we don't know very well.
It that is true, then the Earth (or the Sun) might actually be the center of the universe, how could you tell?
Join us next week as we say out loud very slowly, "We Just Don't Know Nearly as Much as We Act Like We Do" - same bat time, same bat channel.
User Name: Iacopus Caesar
Nov 20, 2008
+1
@mlimber: There are actually several Bible passages that reference the sun revolving around the earth (rather than the reverse, which is more in tune with scientific understanding): Psalm 93:1, Psalm 19:1-6, and Joshua 10:12-14. Indeed, it was not just the Catholic church that came out against Copernicus: Martin Luther himself argues (on the basis of these passages) that Copernicus had to be wrong.
Of course, most educated people these days do not take the Bible to be a scientific work, whether or not they are Christians, but it would not surprise me if there are wingnuts out there who take the above passages literally, just as they take both of the (mutually contradictory) creation stories in Genesis literally. A lot of people don't realize this, but in one version God made man first, then the animals, then woman; in the other version he made the animals first, then man, then woman.
Of course, most educated people these days do not take the Bible to be a scientific work, whether or not they are Christians, but it would not surprise me if there are wingnuts out there who take the above passages literally, just as they take both of the (mutually contradictory) creation stories in Genesis literally. A lot of people don't realize this, but in one version God made man first, then the animals, then woman; in the other version he made the animals first, then man, then woman.
