I can't decide if I prefer the candidate for President who says we should consider all the facts before deciding when to withdraw troops from Iraq or the one who says we should consider all the facts before deciding when to withdraw troops from Iraq.

On a marginally related note, I can't help wondering whether McCain and Obama are both closet atheists. My hunch is that they are.

McCain is famously quiet about his faith, which is strange for a Republican candidate. And you have to wonder what five years in a prison camp does to your belief, assuming his buddies who didn't make it out were praying too. My hunch is that he's not a believer.

Obama came to Christianity about the same time he realized it was useful to his future ambitions. He seems like a pragmatist to me. The majority of people at his education level aren't believers. My hunch is that he isn't a believer either.

I won't quibble if you disagree. It's just a feeling I get by watching how they operate and how they present themselves. The truth will never be known. What's your hunch?
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Jul 31, 2008
1st time commenting here, some interesting points of view.

shirtbloke: "they conspired together to kill people (start a war) - not a very Christian attitude."

Um, if we are to look at history more wars have been credited to religion than anything else, if you look a little deeper you will see its almost allways for land / money, (preferably both) having a sister who's degree i History helped there. It would be a VERY christian attitude to wade in and cliam all the oil!

As to Scotts hunch on the religious preferences of a potential president, I didnt know it mattered, I certinaly think he is bating you all to comment.

as an Englishman i wait with anticipation to see if the US can vote for a black President, it seemingly wasnt ready to vote for a Woman President. The UK did that a while ago and she is certainly one of the most memorable prime ministers in recent history!
+3 Rank Up Rank Down
Jul 31, 2008
Regarding prison and losing faith, just an interesting... A vietnamese roman catholic priest was detained by the Communist Government in Vietnam for 13 years, nine of which in solitary confinement. Well, not only he kept his faith, but he eventually became a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church: Nguyen Van Thuan. That one was tough guy, huh?

+2 Rank Up Rank Down
Jul 31, 2008
On religion, education and intelligence:

Royal Society (UK) - 3.3% believe in God
General population (UK) - 68.5% believe in God

American National Academy of Science - 7% believe in God (1990s)
General population (USA) - ~90% believe in God (1990s)

According to a 2007 study by the Barna Group (a religious polling firm), the atheists and agnostics "tend to be more educated, more affluent and more likely to be male and unmarried than those with active faith".

Google is your friend ;)


Personally I think most of the well educated, intelligent and rational people who profess a belief are of the kind Professor Daniel Dennet suggest - those who believe in the belief of God. Read his "Breaking the Spell" for some very interesting discussion about religion and religiosity.
Jul 31, 2008
What? They dont believe in God? Next you'll be telling me they dont believe in a giant bunny that lays chocolate eggs either. What a crock.
Also - you said "..majority of people at his education level aren't believers"...
I think you'd be surprised how many people with very impressive sounding degrees believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent higher power. Some people even believe in *many* such powers.

I do believe that educated people generally aren't believers. But I think your statement confuses level of schooling with level of education. I went through many many years of school, but Mark Twain my words, I only got an education after I stopped letting my schooling interfere with it.
-8 Rank Up Rank Down
Jul 31, 2008
I suspect that McCain is too moronic NOT to be religious...
Jul 30, 2008
I think it's important to note the difference between Atheist and Agnostic. I do not believe most "at his education level" are Atheist, but Agnostic.

There is a significant difference between "No, there is not a God." and "There could be, but I am not convinced.". Significant. I believe your use of Atheist would be better had it been replaced with Agnostic.
Jul 30, 2008
Universal, free health care without closed borders and restrictions on irresponsible behavior is the biggest fairy tale of them all.
Jul 30, 2008
You should not vote for McCain because he still thinks the war was a good idea. If Obama as an Atheist it would make me very happy. I too don't see how an intelligent person believes in fairy tales.
Jul 30, 2008
I just can't wait until Mitt Romney is declared Veep. That would put everybody on edge--liberals, conservatives--because he would be considered neither an athiest nor an evangelical.

Now the question is which candidate would put him on their ticket?
Jul 30, 2008
This post is actually interesting. I never bought the rumor that Obama was a "closet Muslim", but I always suspected that he was an athiest, because his mother was.

As far as McCain goes, I think his faith is probably similar to Reagan's and Lincoln's. The two presidents didn't really follow a denomination, but they had a general belief in God. Of course in some circles, that may be considered nonbelieving.
Jul 30, 2008
In McCain's book "Faith of My Fathers" he talks quite a bit about how faith helped him, and many of his fellow prisoners, to survive.
+2 Rank Up Rank Down
Jul 30, 2008
My hunch is that if God didn't exist, we'd have to invent him, but luckily we don't... because somebody beat us to it.
Jul 30, 2008
Knowing how much you read, you probably have already seen this video:


Talks about how religion plays such an important role in American politics although the number of agnostics far outweigh religious people (not counting Christianity)
Jul 30, 2008
You might want to check out McCain's interview with Beliefnet.com (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/220/story_22001_1.html). I'll grant that a certain amount pandering is common, but "I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation" and "Personally, I prefer someone who I know who has a solid grounding in my faith" are both unequivocal about his feelings regarding non-Christians and how welcome we are in America.
Jul 30, 2008
There are no atheists in foxholes, or prison camps. And I'm sure McCain knows God much better than any mainstream Christian preacher ever could, which is why he doesn't strongly subscribe. Obama indeed is 'Christian' because it's convenient to his goals and ambitions. He either subscribes to the feel-good crap that mega-church black preachers dish out, or he never went so he was blindsided when what was being said made it into the media. Either way his religion is false.
Jul 30, 2008
Anyone that votes for a candidate based on one issue, religion in this case, is seeking the lowest demoniator to simplify their choice. They are canceling out some individuals perfectly reasoned, researched, logical and thougtful vote.
Jul 30, 2008
Are you not voting in this upcomming election? I thought you advocated not voting in the past, but maybe I'm mistaken. As a non-voter myself, I have to wonder about the shere amount of thought you seem to devote towards deciding which candidate you perfer.
Jul 30, 2008
It's flat out nonsensical to say that Obama was only involved in Christianity for his political ambitions. If that were true he would have chosen a more mainstream church from the get-go, so that there was no ammunition for the unscrupulous individuals that tried to pass of out-of-context quotations from Wright as Obama's personal opinion.

It doesn't necessarily mean that he believes everything in The Bible of course, although there's no proof that he's atheist. There are however plenty of non-political reasons to be involved in a church without believing every single bit of dogma exactly. For instance, it could be a Durkheimian reason about it building community.
Jul 30, 2008
While almost all politicians profess a belief in god, I think either consciously or subconsciously they believe they are god and know what's right for us. I would much prefer an agnostic candidate who has no preference to any religion, and would try to do the best for people in the here and now.
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Jul 30, 2008
Scott said:
"I can't decide if I prefer the candidate for President who says we should consider all the facts before deciding when to withdraw troops from Iraq or the one who says we should consider all the facts before deciding when to withdraw troops from Iraq."

Obama clearly stated his timetable the day before he left. You should have said:

"I can't decide if I prefer the candidate for President who says we should consider all the facts before deciding when to withdraw troops from Iraq or the one who says we should decide when to withdraw the troops from Iraq before considering all of the facts."

The egomaniac must be stopped!
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