Reasoning with the Unreasonable
Jul 28, 2008 General Nonsense |
I spend a lot of time trying to concoct arguments that are so persuasive that even a hardcore unreachable will say, "Golly. Not only was I wrong, but probably stupid as well, and perhaps a little bit insane. I now adopt your viewpoint as my own. Would you like a bite of my sandwich?"
My favorite fantasy in this genre is imagining what I could say to a kid that would make him think he should substitute his own judgment for mine. My fantasy argument goes like this:Kid: Can I climb on the roof?
Me: No. You'd get hurt.
Kid: I'll be careful. And my friend Brian climbs on his roof all the time. He never falls off.
Now at this point you realize that regular reasoning isn't going to win the day. You have to resort to the "Because I said so" fall-back, but while effective, that never seems like a clean win to me. To the kid it appears you don't have a good reason and you're just being an ass about it. That's why I fantasize about the rest of the discussion going this way:
Me: Do you know who invented the roof?
Kid: No.
Me: It wasn't a kid. In fact, nothing important has ever been invented by a kid. Do you know why that is?
Kid: I don't care.
Me: It's because your brain won't be fully developed until sometime in your twenties.
Kid: I'm not listening TRA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!
Me: You don't understand why you can't go on the roof because your brain isn't developed enough to understand the risk involved.
Kid: You suck. I hate you.
Me: I'll make you a deal. If you can find anything in this house that was invented by a kid, I'll admit that kids know as much as adults and you can climb on the roof. Use my computer, which incidentally was invented by adults. Go nuts.
(seven hours later)
Kid: Golly. Not only was I wrong, but probably stupid as well, and perhaps a little bit insane. I now adopt your viewpoint as my own. Would you like a bite of my sandwich?
Me: Thanks, but the last time you washed your hands was in amniotic fluid.
Votes: +13
Comments
User Name: realbadger
Aug 10, 2008
0
My mother had an amusing reverse logic of sorts that (when I was a kid), had me stymied for years.
If I made a request (as a kid, most likely a demand...), and she would say No, I would predictably ask Why?
Instead of your innovative position, which she could have used: "You don't understand why you can't [do/have that], because your brain isn't developed enough to understand why you can't [do/have that]:" she would simply say the kid-mind-stopping: "If I said 'Yes,' would you ask 'Why'?"
Understandably my brain wasn't developed enough to understand the actual debatable response would be if she said yes, we'd clearly be on th'same page, but as a kid I never really had a response to her calm, baffling reply.
If I made a request (as a kid, most likely a demand...), and she would say No, I would predictably ask Why?
Instead of your innovative position, which she could have used: "You don't understand why you can't [do/have that], because your brain isn't developed enough to understand why you can't [do/have that]:" she would simply say the kid-mind-stopping: "If I said 'Yes,' would you ask 'Why'?"
Understandably my brain wasn't developed enough to understand the actual debatable response would be if she said yes, we'd clearly be on th'same page, but as a kid I never really had a response to her calm, baffling reply.
User Name: TwoKids
Aug 2, 2008
0
The popsicle. Earmuffs. (Guy made a fortune selling them to the army in WWI.) Television and snowboard already mentioned. America's Young Inventors: http://nmoe.org/gallery/
See also: http://familyonlinelinks.blogspot.com/2007/08/inventions.html
See also: http://familyonlinelinks.blogspot.com/2007/08/inventions.html
User Name: im.thatoneguy
Aug 2, 2008
0
Your strategy is actually accidentally brilliant.
Kids have invented all kinds of things. But... and this is an important but...if the kid actually can recognize the historical significance of young people he's probably sufficiently educated and intelligent to accurately assess the risks of running around on the roof.
Therefore if the kid is an idiot he won't be able to solve the riddle. If he isn't an idiot then he can do as he pleases.
Kids have invented all kinds of things. But... and this is an important but...if the kid actually can recognize the historical significance of young people he's probably sufficiently educated and intelligent to accurately assess the risks of running around on the roof.
Therefore if the kid is an idiot he won't be able to solve the riddle. If he isn't an idiot then he can do as he pleases.
User Name: Roy Blacksail
Jul 29, 2008
+1
As a student going into his fourth year of electrical engineering I can still say that my housemates and I still thoroughly enjoy running around the roof like we did when we were kids. The only difference is that beer is often involved now.
User Name: etiennecalame
Jul 29, 2008
0
just arguing for the fun: could we consider Bill Gates was still a teen when in early 75 he drawn with paul Allen the first version of its basic interpreter?
User Name: Weaseltongue
Jul 29, 2008
0
Woo I'm a huge huge fan :) I survived in the corporate world because of Dilbert and the Way of the Weasl!!!!
Ook, I will try to avoid gushing, um, more gushing :D ...
Well you convinced the kid??? I dunno "you suck" was a pretty powerful argument he advanced. I don't see a convincing retort to that??? (Hint: "No YOU suck!")
Ook, I will try to avoid gushing, um, more gushing :D ...
Well you convinced the kid??? I dunno "you suck" was a pretty powerful argument he advanced. I don't see a convincing retort to that??? (Hint: "No YOU suck!")
User Name: nickersond
Jul 29, 2008
+1
My parents never let me get on the roof, either, so I climbed up there everytime they left me alone.
Try insisting he go up on the roof as much as possible, and it will no longer be an urge for him.
Try insisting he go up on the roof as much as possible, and it will no longer be an urge for him.
User Name: Jibble67
Jul 29, 2008
+1
The most persuasive argument I've seen this week is this one:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Can't wait to try it on the next Xtian who dares to cross my path.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Can't wait to try it on the next Xtian who dares to cross my path.
User Name: butterflynz
Jul 28, 2008
0
And even then amniotic fluid is just fetus-pee.
But that's ok, because the fetus drinks it, too.
But that's ok, because the fetus drinks it, too.
User Name: itegem
Jul 28, 2008
0
Scott, you better prepare for a visit from social services after admitting in writing that nobody has ever washed your kids hands (doesn't sound to promising for the rest of their bodies either).
On the other hand that remark had me in stitches for several minutes.
On the other hand that remark had me in stitches for several minutes.
User Name: hbmindia
Jul 28, 2008
+5
You need not enter or win an argument with children.
All you have to do is convince them to do things your way.
The difference is illustrated by the following story
"
According to a news report, a certain school in Garden
City, MI was recently faced with a unique problem.
A number of 12-year-old girls were beginning to use
lipstick and would put it on in the wash room.
That was fine, but after they put on their lipstick they
would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of
little lip prints.
Every night, the maintenance man would remove them and the
next day the girls would put them back.
Finally the principal decided that something had to be
done. He called all the girls to the washroom and met them
there with the maintenance man.
He explained that all these lip prints were causing a major
problem for the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every
night.
To demonstrate how difficult it had been to clean the
mirrors, he asked the maintenance man to show the girls how
much effort was required.
He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it in the
toilet, and cleaned the mirror with it.
Since then, there have been no lip prints on the mirror.
"
All you have to do is convince them to do things your way.
The difference is illustrated by the following story
"
According to a news report, a certain school in Garden
City, MI was recently faced with a unique problem.
A number of 12-year-old girls were beginning to use
lipstick and would put it on in the wash room.
That was fine, but after they put on their lipstick they
would press their lips to the mirror leaving dozens of
little lip prints.
Every night, the maintenance man would remove them and the
next day the girls would put them back.
Finally the principal decided that something had to be
done. He called all the girls to the washroom and met them
there with the maintenance man.
He explained that all these lip prints were causing a major
problem for the custodian who had to clean the mirrors every
night.
To demonstrate how difficult it had been to clean the
mirrors, he asked the maintenance man to show the girls how
much effort was required.
He took out a long-handled squeegee, dipped it in the
toilet, and cleaned the mirror with it.
Since then, there have been no lip prints on the mirror.
"
User Name: PAG
Jul 28, 2008
0
Great conversation with the kid..
Taking the first few sentences of your entry:
"I spend a lot of time trying to concoct arguments that are so persuasive that even a !$%*!$%* unreachable will say, "Golly. Not only was I wrong, but probably stupid as well, and perhaps a little bit insane. I now adopt your viewpoint as my own"
Have you frankly ever managed to do that? With anybody? Your new dog doesn't count as 'anybody'.
I find that one has much greater results (with kids, bosses .. and Ladies!!) with the following ammendments:
"I spend a lot of time trying to concoct arguments that are so persuasive that.. they will make me adopt the standpoint of the other person".
I don't say it's "right", but it's an approach with great return on investment. For all of the young proud single gentlemen out there, that would mean a HUGE return on investment.. :) Well if you are married, it avoids also a lot of trouble.
any views? I love great returns on investments..
P-A
http://devrouze.blogspot.com/
Taking the first few sentences of your entry:
"I spend a lot of time trying to concoct arguments that are so persuasive that even a !$%*!$%* unreachable will say, "Golly. Not only was I wrong, but probably stupid as well, and perhaps a little bit insane. I now adopt your viewpoint as my own"
Have you frankly ever managed to do that? With anybody? Your new dog doesn't count as 'anybody'.
I find that one has much greater results (with kids, bosses .. and Ladies!!) with the following ammendments:
"I spend a lot of time trying to concoct arguments that are so persuasive that.. they will make me adopt the standpoint of the other person".
I don't say it's "right", but it's an approach with great return on investment. For all of the young proud single gentlemen out there, that would mean a HUGE return on investment.. :) Well if you are married, it avoids also a lot of trouble.
any views? I love great returns on investments..
P-A
http://devrouze.blogspot.com/
User Name: Hemantsclone
Jul 28, 2008
-1
Help Wanted
I have a girlfriend who wants to marry me because I understand what she likes!!!
I have a girlfriend who wants to marry me because I understand what she likes!!!
User Name: tragicmishap
Jul 28, 2008
0
Great story. Only one problem: "imagining what I could say to a kid that would make him think he should substitute his own judgment for mine. "
Why would you need to convince anyone they should use their own judgment instead of yours? I would think it would take convincing to make him think he should substitute your judgment for his own. I think that's what you meant, but I only read things that people actually write. Makes sense doesn't it?
Why would you need to convince anyone they should use their own judgment instead of yours? I would think it would take convincing to make him think he should substitute your judgment for his own. I think that's what you meant, but I only read things that people actually write. Makes sense doesn't it?
User Name: Brant
Jul 28, 2008
+1
The snowboard was invented by a 12-year-old in 1965. Coincidentally, on page 9 of Issue 98 of MAD Magazine (1965) there's an article on surfing in which "snow surfing" is introduced as an alternative for surfers who can't get enough surfing in. If your kid claims that snowboarding was invented by a kid, you can nail the little SOB on a technicality. Punk hair styles were invented in 1865 by another cartoonist, parodying another fad.
User Name: fatherjack
Jul 28, 2008
0
not sure a kid would spends that long on a PC unless there was a game (created by adults) that kept their attention.
User Name: Alice2
Jul 28, 2008
+1
I never asked, because I knew what the answer would be. I just did it. Me and my sisters used to sunbath on the roof. I don't do it anymore.
